• Re: Running linux in vm o

    From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to DaiTengu on Mon Oct 15 11:45:00 2018
    Proxmox is free to use. Without the community license (about $93 per
    year, per physical cpu socket), you simply don't get access to actual support or their update repository, so all updates have to be done
    manually.


    I've been using promox free for years now. Actually i'm talking to you trough my bbs that's been running in bridged mode on promox since 2015. No glitch.

    it's really a great platform and great for the person that want to experiment. My Tradewar game server is also a vm on promox, so it's flexible the bbs run under linux ubuntu and the tradewars in windows.

    SO i can attest that like you that it work well.

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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dumas Walker on Mon Oct 15 11:48:00 2018
    Exactly. Trying to emulate a 32-bit install on a working 64-bit machine. Proxmox looks pretty neat but I like the linux distro I currently have. :)

    once you virtualize you can mix and match your vms, my bbs is a 32bit ubuntu vm, and i have a lamp server (ubuntu 64bit) concurently and a windows box a lubuntu and another vm debian 64.

    You could even virtualize a win95 if you felt like it.

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  • From Minex@VERT/TDOD to Ennev on Tue Oct 16 05:07:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Ennev to Dumas Walker on Mon Oct 15 2018 03:48 pm

    once you virtualize you can mix and match your vms, my bbs is a 32bit ubuntu vm, and i have a lamp server (ubuntu 64bit) concurently and a windows box a lubuntu and another vm debian 64.

    You could even virtualize a win95 if you felt like it.

    This is pretty much what I do with my other BBS. I am running MajorBBS on Windows XP in a Virtual Machine on MacOS. I have an old 2006 Black Macbook that was collecting dust. I was going to sell it when I decided to turn it into a MajorBBS server and it actually runs surprisingly well.

    If you would have told me in the early 1990's that I'd be running MajorBBS on a Apple computer in 2018, I wouldn't have believed you, lol.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Minex on Tue Oct 16 11:55:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Minex to Ennev on Tue Oct 16 2018 09:07 am

    This is pretty much what I do with my other BBS. I am running MajorBBS on Windows XP in a Virtual Machine on MacOS. I have an old 2006 Black Macbook that was collecting dust. I was going to sell it when I decided to turn it into a MajorBBS server and it actually runs surprisingly well.

    In 2010, I had a Mac Mini and ran my BBS in a Windows 2000 VM on it for a while. It ran okay, although not as speedy as in other configurations I've run it in. Currently I'm running my BBS in a Windows 7 (32-bit) VM in VirtualBox running on a Linux Mint host (I run other stuff on that machine), with an Intel i5-9XX something, and it runs very well on it.

    If you would have told me in the early 1990's that I'd be running MajorBBS on a Apple computer in 2018, I wouldn't have believed you, lol.

    Yeah, things can change a lot. I'm not sure there was much virtualization software for the Mac before they started using Intel processors. I've heard rumors that Apple is planning to switch to ARM processors for their Mac starting in 2020 though.

    Nightfox

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  • From Jagossel@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 04:40:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Minex on Tue Oct 16 2018 15:55:04

    Yeah, things can change a lot. I'm not sure there was much virtualization software for the Mac before they started using Intel processors. I've heard rumors that Apple is planning to switch to ARM processors for their Mac starting in 2020 though.

    I've heard that Apple was making their own processors, not ARM.

    -jag
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Wed Oct 17 05:41:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:40 am

    Yeah, things can change a lot. I'm not sure there was much
    virtualization software for the Mac before they started using Intel
    processors. I've heard rumors that Apple is planning to switch to ARM
    processors for their Mac starting in 2020 though.

    I've heard that Apple was making their own processors, not ARM.

    Well ARM actually doesn't make processors, ARM makes processor designs and licenses the designs to other companies to make their own processors with ARM designs. So Apple would be making their own ARM-based processor.

    Nightfox

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  • From Jagossel@VERT/FRUGALBB to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 10:31:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Jagossel on Wed Oct 17 2018 09:41 am

    Yeah, things can change a lot. I'm not sure there was much
    virtualization software for the Mac before they started using Intel
    processors. I've heard rumors that Apple is planning to switch to ARM
    processors for their Mac starting in 2020 though.

    I've heard that Apple was making their own processors, not ARM.

    Well ARM actually doesn't make processors, ARM makes processor designs and licenses the designs to other companies to make their own processors with AR designs. So Apple would be making their own ARM-based processor.

    Kind of like RISC? Although, I have heard that RISC is more open than ARM.

    With ARM licensing their designs, that would make sense for Apple ro make their own ARM chips. I would beinterested how that will work out for them both sales wise and software wise.

    -jag
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Wed Oct 17 08:31:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 02:31 pm

    Well ARM actually doesn't make processors, ARM makes processor designs
    and licenses the designs to other companies to make their own
    processors with AR designs. So Apple would be making their own
    ARM-based processor.

    Kind of like RISC? Although, I have heard that RISC is more open than ARM.

    My understanding is that RISC is an architecture (Reduced Instruction Set Computing). Any CPU maker can make a processor with a RISC design. RISC isn't a specific company that is more open than another.

    With ARM licensing their designs, that would make sense for Apple ro make their own ARM chips. I would beinterested how that will work out for them both sales wise and software wise.

    Apple has switched CPUs in their Macs a couple times before (once from Motorola 68k to PowerPC, and then from PowerPC to Intel). I'm sure they will probably be okay. I think it's a little disappointing though, because Macs with Intel means they can run both OS X and Windows easily. Compatibility will suffer a bit, but that will be temporary. But there will probably be a point where Intel-based Mac apps won't be updated to run on ARM-based Macs, so Mac users won't be able to use them anymore.

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean Apple should drop Intel.

    Nightfox

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  • From Chai@VERT/FRUGALBB to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 16:35:00 2018
    Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean
    Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing
    their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    It should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recent
    Apple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques.
    It's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac line doesn't get much attention at the WWDC.


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Jagossel on Thu Oct 18 08:36:00 2018
    On 10-17-18 14:31, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-

    With ARM licensing their designs, that would make sense for Apple ro
    make their own ARM chips. I would beinterested how that will work out
    for them both sales wise and software wise.

    Could be some interesting crossovers between desktop and iPhone/iPad apps in this.


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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Chai on Wed Oct 17 19:41:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pm

    Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops.

    Maybe desktops doesn't include laptops?

    digital man

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Chai on Thu Oct 18 05:31:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pm

    I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companies
    sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should mean
    Apple should drop Intel.

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    It should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recent Apple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques. It's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac line doesn't get much attention at the WWDC.

    eh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktops altogether. And by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? I can't imagine that not enough people would want those that Apple would decide to drop them. There are still types of work that I think are easiest on that kind of device. Also, I could see people adding a keyboard and a mouse to a tablet, and at that point it becomes basically like a laptop anyway.

    But then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their time in the past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time when people still used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided to remove optical drives from their computers (and they never did even have blu-ray drives).

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Sun Oct 21 14:50:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Chai on Thu Oct 18 2018 09:31:19

    Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closing their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.

    eh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktops altogether. And by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? I can't imagine that not enough people would want those that Apple would decide to drop them. There are still types of work that I think are easiest on that kind of device. Also, I could see people adding a keyboard and a mouse to a tablet, and at that point it becomes basically like a laptop anyway.

    But then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their time in the past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time when people still used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided to remove optical drives from their computers (and they never did even have blu-ray drives).

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Just a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where he acknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, and that they were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Mac Pro that would be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted. Since that machine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping the desktop line.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Mon Oct 22 05:53:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Sun Oct 21 2018 06:50 pm

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Yeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive as standard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS X to burn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.

    Just a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where he acknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, and that they were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Mac Pro that would be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted. Since that machine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping the desktop line.

    I always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Some of Apple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easy upgradeability as a feature.

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Mon Oct 22 17:24:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:53:23

    My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn't come with it.

    Yeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive as standard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS X to burn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.

    The ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There are external USB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to and reading burned blu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is another story. There ARE a few pieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and some other bits, that'll do it, but it usually isn't cheap, and kind of not worth it when you can just download a digital file of the same quality.

    I always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Some of Apple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easy upgradeability as a feature.

    I still have my old Quicksilver G4, which I've upgraded and maxed out over the years. Despite the fact that it can't run any version of OSX over 10.5, I've found that it's still a perfectly solid workhorse for stuff like email, web browsing, even watching YouTube videos (beefier-than-stock video card, 1.5GB of RAM, and dual 1Ghz G4s can actually pull it off, at least at 480p) is entirely doable. And, good lord, that graphite case is sex-ay.

    I guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandable system, in that lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it rather than buy next years' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Apple of their desired profit.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Tue Oct 23 06:11:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:24 pm

    The ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There are external USB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to and reading burned blu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is another story. There ARE a few pieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and some other bits, that'll do it, but it usually isn't cheap, and kind of not worth it when you can just download a digital file of the same quality.

    Interesting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in when Macs never included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OS wouldn't necessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since there can also be software just for burning to optical discs. Windows has been able to burn to optical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to using software such as Nero to burn optical discs.

    I guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandable system, in that lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it rather than buy next years' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Apple of their desired profit.

    I dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but I think upgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn't upgradable, I'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead. So upgradability can be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you need more RAM or hard drive space, or might want to put in a more powerful graphics card, and it can be useful to be able to do that. Speaking of that, I'm not sure what graphics cards are available for Mac these days, or if you can even replace them..

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Tue Oct 23 13:02:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Tue Oct 23 2018 10:11:56

    Interesting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in when Macs never included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OS wouldn't necessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since there can also be software just for burning to optical discs. Windows has been able to burn to optical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to using software such as Nero to burn optical discs.

    They definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an external blu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). And there in my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-ray holds. I eventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-ray just for the burning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it, so it might eventually be a second HD in there.

    I dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but I think upgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn't upgradable, I'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead.
    So upgradability can be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you need more RAM or hard drive space, or might want to put in a more powerful graphics card, and it can be useful to be able to do that. Speaking of that, I'm not sure what graphics cards are available for Mac these days, or if you can even replace them..

    Back in the PowerPC Mac days, if you wanted to use a non-Mac-specific video card, you usually needed to flash the ROM or firmware or whatever on it in order to make it play nice with the architecture. I did that once or twice.

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Wed Oct 24 04:37:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Tue Oct 23 2018 05:02 pm

    They definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an external blu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). And there in my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-ray holds. I eventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-ray just for the burning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it, so it might eventually be a second HD in there.

    Yeah, I bought a laptop several years ago, and I opted to have them put in a 2nd hard drive in place of the optical drive (it was an option with Lenovo) since I don't use optical drives a whole lot in a PC anymore. My desktop has a blu-ray burner that I put in it when I built it though, and these days I do use it sometimes for ripping music and movies. I still have a bunch of burnable DVD-Rs, CD-Rs, and blu-ray writeable discs, and I've thought of using some of them for backups. Sometimes I still feel like a backup on an optical disc is more secure than a backup on a hard drive, because files on a hard drive could be deleted accidentally, whereas a backup on an optical disc is permanent.

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

    Yeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers for Mac make drivers that you can install like on Windows.

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Wed Oct 24 09:33:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Wed Oct 24 2018 08:37:05

    Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.

    Yeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers for Mac make drivers that you can install like on Windows.

    Surprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards that aren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is that Apple was really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, where you could have video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac via Thunderbolt, so they tossed support for as many as they could in there. Though, efficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usually waaaay better than the Mac drivers.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Wed Oct 24 11:20:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm o
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Wed Oct 24 2018 01:33 pm

    Surprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards that aren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is that Apple was really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, where you could have video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac via Thunderbolt, so they tossed support for as many as they could in there. Though, efficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usually waaaay better than the Mac drivers.

    Interesting.. IMO the OS shouldn't necessarily include a ton of drivers for everything though, because chances are the user won't install most of that hardware. Having those drivers on hand would just be wasted space. Often, for Windows at least, the hardware maker provides drivers for people to download and install when installing one of their pieces of hardware. I know a lot of hardware vendors do submit drivers to be included in Windows, but I think that's mainly for Windows to have a base of commonly included hardware in PCs, for things like hard drive controllers, USB ports, onboard audio, etc.. I imagine Mac OS would need a lot fewer drivers included since Apple is the only company that builds Macs and doesn't officially allow Mac clones.

    Nightfox

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  • From Android8675@VERT/SHODAN to Nightfox on Thu Oct 25 10:13:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Jagossel on Wed Oct 17 2018 12:31 pm

    Apple has switched CPUs in their Macs a couple times before (once from Motorola 68k to PowerPC, and then from PowerPC to Intel). I'm sure they will probably be okay. I think it's a little disappointing though, because Macs with Intel means they can run both OS X and Windows easily. Compatibility will suffer a bit, but that will be temporary. But there will probably be a point where Intel-based Mac apps won't be updated to run on ARM-based Macs, so Mac users won't be able to use them anymore.

    only difference between a 68k and PowerPC was 16-bti vs. 32-bit, the changet o Intel was significated because the Intel CPU wasn't compabible with 68k/PPC code which is why for a while OSx could run on both CPUs until they had enough of an Intel base that they phased out support for Motorola CPUs in 10.5.x (Leopard I think).

    Apple has never been one for Windows, and at this point I don't think it matters what CPU the platform runs on. Also, doesn't Win10 run on ARM CPUs? I used to love Apple systems, now they are just sealed bloatware.

    I'm responding to an old message, sorry if you guys have moved on a long time ago. ;)
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 13:08:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Thu Oct 25 2018 02:13 pm

    only difference between a 68k and PowerPC was 16-bti vs. 32-bit, the changet o Intel was significated because the Intel CPU wasn't compabible with 68k/PPC code which is why for a while OSx could run on both CPUs until they had enough of an Intel base that they phased out support for Motorola CPUs in 10.5.x (Leopard I think).

    hmm, I always thought the transition from 68k to PowerPC was also significant because the PowerPC used a different instruction set. I've always heard Apple had to use emulation to be backwards-compatible with 68k. http://lowendmac.com/roundtable/12rt/026-powerpc-transition.html
    "Perhaps the most important feature of the new Power Macs was Apple's inclusion of a 680x0 emulator as part of Mac OS, which allowed PowerPC Macs to run most existing software efficiently on the new processors, much as Rosetta would later allow Intel Macs ro run PowerPC software."

    Apple has never been one for Windows, and at this point I don't think it

    Since they transitioned to Intel, they (or at least, Apple users) have always advertised the ability to run Windows as an advantage though.

    matters what CPU the platform runs on. Also, doesn't Win10 run on ARM CPUs? I used to love Apple systems, now they are just sealed bloatware.

    I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs on ARM, but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I thought it was still in development, and that PC makers were still working on ARM-based Windows devices.

    Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "sealed bloatware"? People often say Apple Macs don't include all the bloatware that is usually installed on Windows systems from major PC makers.

    I think the CPU does matter, at least to some extent, because changing the CPU that the system runs on would require an emulator for a period of time until their software is updated to run natively on the new CPU. And some applications might never get updated.

    Nightfox

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  • From Jagossel@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Fri Oct 26 04:39:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 2018 17:08:42

    I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs on ARM but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I thought it was st in development, and that PC makers were still working on ARM-based Windows devices.

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    Who knows...


    -jag
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 05:56:00 2018
    Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Fri Oct 26 2018 08:39 am

    I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs
    on ARM but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I
    thought it was st in development, and that PC makers were still
    working on ARM-based Windows devices.

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    Windows 8 RT was a separate thing. It did run on ARM, but the problem was that it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps, which people didn't find useful. I think people also found it confusing, since it was a version of Windows that didn't run any of the regular Windows desktop software. So it didn't sell well and it was pulled off the market. Microsoft is trying again with this ARM verson of Windows 10 though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 06:07:00 2018
    Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Nightfox to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 2018 09:56 am

    Here are a couple of pages on this: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-here-stay-whether-you-it-or-not

    Nightfox

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Jagossel on Sat Oct 27 07:28:00 2018
    On 10-26-18 08:39, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-

    That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows
    8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and
    Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

    I think when people see "Windows", they expect to be able to do everything on it that they can on their (Windows) desktop or laptop, while Windows RT, from what I understand was an experience that was more like using a tablet - limited app selection, etc.


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 07:30:00 2018
    On 10-26-18 09:56, Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

    though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?


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  • From Chai@VERT/FRUGALBB to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 13:14:00 2018
    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in
    terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get
    it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.


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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Sun Oct 28 09:35:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 2018 17:08:42

    only difference between a 68k and PowerPC was 16-bti vs. 32-bit, the changet o Intel was significated because the Intel CPU wasn't compabible with 68k/PPC code which is why for a while OSx could run on

    hmm, I always thought the transition from 68k to PowerPC was also significant because the PowerPC used a different instruction set. I've always heard Apple had to use emulation to be backwards-compatible with 68k. "Perhaps the most important feature of the new Power Macs was Apple's inclusion of a 680x0 emulator as part of Mac OS, which allowed PowerPC Macs to run most existing software efficiently on the new processors, much as Rosetta would later allow Intel Macs ro run PowerPC software."

    It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software. Since the PowerPC was developed by Apple, IBM, and Motorola, one of it's main functions was specifically to replace the 68k, and software-level emulation at that point wasn't anywhere near efficient enough to do so effectively. So the emulation is built into the chips themselves.

    Apple stopped supporting PowerPC after Leopard... but the Classic MacOS -- OS9, whatever, which still had a lot of native 68k libraries -- would run on any PowerPC Mac, up to the G5 (the G5 had to do it from within OSX because of a firmware change; the G4, though, could boot as OS9).

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Vk3jed on Mon Oct 29 05:48:00 2018
    Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 2018 11:30 am

    though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will
    run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for
    compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Derision on Mon Oct 29 05:49:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Derision to Nightfox on Sun Oct 28 2018 01:35 pm

    It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software. Since the PowerPC was developed by Apple, IBM, and Motorola, one of it's main functions was specifically to replace the 68k, and software-level emulation at that point wasn't anywhere near efficient enough to do so effectively. So the emulation is built into the chips themselves.

    Interesting.. I do remember hearing somewhere that Mac software for 68k sometimes ran better on the PowerPC - Probably due to the hardware backwards compatibility.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Chai on Mon Oct 29 06:04:00 2018
    Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
    By: Chai to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 2018 05:14 pm

    What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.

    I believe battery life is a main advantage, and perhaps performance per watt. Intel's processors with their 10 nanometer manufacturing technology has been significantly delayed, and I think some companies are worried that Intel is stagnating.

    Nightfox

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  • From Derision@VERT/AMIGAC to Nightfox on Mon Oct 29 12:07:00 2018
    Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
    By: Nightfox to Derision on Mon Oct 29 2018 09:49:50

    It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software.

    Interesting.. I do remember hearing somewhere that Mac software for 68k sometimes ran better on the PowerPC - Probably due to the hardware backwards compatibility.

    Absolutely. The earliest PowerPC chips, while faster overall the the 68040s that came before them, didn't execute code quite as fast. So a 100Mhz PowerPC 601 actually performed 68k stuff slower than a 25Mhz 68040, but that was fixed later on by adding cache and whatnot and, I think, dynamically recompiling some of the code to native PowerPC.

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Wed Oct 31 06:41:00 2018
    On 10-29-18 09:48, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

    I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit
    option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

    Hard to tell. The tipping point will be when memory requirements start to exceed a few GB for a single instance, then 64 bit will become highly advantageous, same if we see a lot of common software manipulating lots of huge numbers or data structures.


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