I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
Nightfox wrote to Utopian Galt <=-
Re: Cracked cases
By: Utopian Galt to All on Sat Mar 26 2022 10:28 am
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
Did this happen to you recently?
I suppose it would be nice to have a refund, but as long as the
software is still installable, then it's fine.
These days, many times software is bought online as a
downloadable thing, so you wouldn't even get a physical package.
MRO wrote to Utopian Galt <=-
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Re: Cracked cases
By: Utopian Galt to All on Sat Mar 26 2022 10:28 am
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
if you buy a can of beer does it matter if the can is dented?
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracke I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
Video game and music collection is its own little sub culture. I have some expensive albums for example such as some limited edition music cds and video games etc. Value usually goes down when the case is not intact even if it costs me an extra 3-5 bucks to replace.
who the fuck still uses cds and who even reads books anymore!if you buy a can of beer does it matter if the can is dented?
The beer can is disposed if after it is first consumed, the CD case is kept for the life of the CD. It's to me, like buying a book with the cover torn.
if you buy a can of beer does it matter if the can is dented?
Utopian Galt wrote to All <=-
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
if you buy a can of beer does it matter if the can is dented?
I don't know about beer but I can remember back when there were a lot of public service announcements (and even films in school) about never eating the food out of a can that had been dented because it could lead to botcholism or salmonella (sp? on both).
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to MRO on Sun Mar 27 2022 07:37 pm
if you buy a can of beer does it matter if the can is dented?
The beer can is disposed if after it is first consumed, the CD case is kept for the life of the CD. It's to me, like buying a book with the cover torn.
who the fuck still uses cds and who even reads books anymore!
go back to 1990!
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is
broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers
on that issue.
I suppose it would be nice to have a refund, but as long as the
software is still installable, then it's fine.
Well, to him it's not. Sounds like he wants the packaging/case to store the software in, perhaps on a shelf, or CD rack, or something.
These days, many times software is bought online as a
downloadable thing, so you wouldn't even get a physical package.
That has nothing to do with the situation he's describing.
Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is
broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers
on that issue.
I suppose it would be nice to have a refund, but as long as the
software is still installable, then it's fine.
Well, to him it's not. Sounds like he wants the packaging/case to store the software in, perhaps on a shelf, or CD rack, or something.
He specificially said he wished they could offer a 10% discount
to customers on this issue.
These days, many times software is bought online as a
downloadable thing, so you wouldn't even get a physical package.
That has nothing to do with the situation he's describing.
How so?
That has nothing to do with the situation he's describing.
How so?
Really? He described a situation where he's bought software and it comes in a broken case. A specific example encountered by him. You described a theoretical (I'm not arguing that it isn't true) situation where a person might download some software and not get a physical package. While that is certainly true, it has no relevance to what he's talking about. See?
Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-
Really? He described a situation where he's bought software and it comes in a broken case. A specific example encountered by him. You described a theoretical (I'm not arguing that it isn't true) situation where a person might download some software and not get a physical package. While that is certainly true, it has no relevance to what he's talking about. See?
Conversations often flow in such a way that things that are
tangential (though not always directly related) are brought up.
During a conversation, if you only stick to things that are 100%
relevant to what was already said, the conversation could die out
fairly quickly. I don't know why you're picking an issue with
this.
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/
case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10%
discount to customers on that issue.
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on that issue.
I hate when buying music or software and the packaging/case is broken/cracked. I wish they could offer a 10% discount to customers on th issue.
I guess people would be tempted to crack them on purpose before reaching the cash.
Only valid when the store finds out the packaging is not in good condition and they put a sticker giving the discount.
Cracked cases can be easily replaced though. What is worse as I have had happen, is when the CD is cracked. And the CD that I had cracked was a rare one, almost impossible to get now.
Cracked cases can be easily replaced though. What is worse as I have
had happen, is when the CD is cracked. And the CD that I had cracked
was a rare one, almost impossible to get now.
But now I'm going through my wife's CD stach, and they are
unbelievably scratched. I bought a device, but for so they are
even scratched on the cover art side, which is actually the
thinnest, so I think that for some, the data layer is damaged :-/
Generally best to rip to ALAC/FLAC right away for those kinds of things, then store the CD in case of future issues. Of course, if you can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy
can
download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy
How is a site like Apple Music, Amazon, etc. a 'better' source than ripping from CD?
Depending on how scratched, there is some level of redundancy in CD
audio data... a lot of content may be able to get ripped anyway... there
are CD/DVD polishers, that some have suggested, I never tried them myself.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 4/1/22 16:45, Boraxman wrote:
Cracked cases can be easily replaced though. What is worse as I have
had happen, is when the CD is cracked. And the CD that I had cracked
was a rare one, almost impossible to get now.
Generally best to rip to ALAC/FLAC right away for those kinds of
things, then store the CD in case of future issues. Of course, if you
can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to
something lossy for portability.
Not sure how broad it is, but many services allow you to add your own sources, if you use them for music streaming depending on what you use
on the go. There's also Plex etc.
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 04 2022 08:22 pm
can
download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy
How is a site like Apple Music, Amazon, etc. a 'better' source than ripping from CD?
better quality with no issues. your personal rips could have imperfections. ---
Perhaps. I use cdparanoia, which is the basis for the windows Exact Audio Copy. Never heard any imperfections, though I'm aware a bit or two can be flipped without you noticing it.
I still prefer the CD becaues I like the liner notes, and to be able to listen to it in my car, or my stereo system (which is relatively old).
Generally best to rip to ALAC/FLAC right away for those kinds of
things, then store the CD in case of future issues. Of course, if
you can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple
music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding
to something lossy.
How is a site like Apple Music, Amazon, etc. a 'better' source than
ripping from CD?
...
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC
and MP3 version.
you can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple
music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding
to something lossy.
How is a site like Apple Music, Amazon, etc. a 'better' source than
ripping from CD?
Note: "... encoded from a better source ..."
CD is less than perfect mix-down, and often original source material is encoded in a better quality. The sites mentioned sometimes have better source material than the CD for the original audio in addition to being able to download FLAC/ALAC encoding from the web store(s). The source could be original from the studio, or even Blue-ray audio. Also,
possibly additional channels, positional data, etc.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 04 2022 08:22 pm
can
download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy
How is a site like Apple Music, Amazon, etc. a 'better' source than rippi from CD?
better quality with no issues. your personal rips could have imperfections.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <624B8D68.23005.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <62478E82.55774.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 4/1/22 16:45, Boraxman wrote:
Cracked cases can be easily replaced though. What is worse as I have
had happen, is when the CD is cracked. And the CD that I had cracked
was a rare one, almost impossible to get now.
Generally best to rip to ALAC/FLAC right away for those kinds of things, then store the CD in case of future issues. Of course, if you can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy for portability.
Not sure how broad it is, but many services allow you to add your own sources, if you use them for music streaming depending on what you use on the go. There's also Plex etc.
That is what I do. I rip CD's I purchase to FLAC as a master, a backup, the encode to OGG for listening to on my computer. I do still use the CD, mainl in my car.
Once you got it as a FLAC file, you can reencode to any format later on with having to rip the CD again.
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC and MP3 version.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Apr 05 2022 07:51 pm
Perhaps. I use cdparanoia, which is the basis for the windows Exact Audio Copy. Never heard any imperfections, though I'm aware a bit or two can be flipped without you noticing it.
there will be chirps. you can edit the file and remove them but that would be a lot of work.
i'd rather just download the music unless i had something rare.
I still prefer the CD becaues I like the liner notes, and to be able to listen to it in my car, or my stereo system (which is relatively old).
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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@REPLY: <624C1175.55803.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 4/5/22 02:49, Boraxman wrote:
...
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC
and MP3 version.
Yeah, when you can get FLAC/ALAC directly, it's usually the best option since it's closest to the source (usually). Have you played with
Blu-ray audio at all? Haven't really tried it, but having more
positional data or channels in the music might be cool.
there will be chirps. you can edit the file and remove them but
that would be a lot of work.
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
result) you also get a notification. It is quite rare for CDs stored in good conditions to degrade in such a way that you get holes in the data which cannot be recovered.
Ennev wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I only tried it on one so far as a guinea pig, and it worked. It
managed to go through many deep scratches, now I was able to put it in
a reader with errors correction on and rip it satisfactorily. So I have
a lot of work ahead of me.
i'd rather just download the music unless i had something rare.
I still prefer the CD becaues I like the liner notes, and to be able to listen to it in my car, or my stereo system (which is relatively old).
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Apr 06 2022 08:31 pm
there will be chirps. you can edit the file and remove them but
that would be a lot of work.
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
Same, I've ripped all of my music CDs and have never heard any chirps in any of it.
Rubbing alcohol, brasso and microfiber cloths always seemed to do the
trick.
For the car, I just burn a remix CD with the stuff I may want to
listen to. I know it is very 90s, but if ain't broken, don't fix it.
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC
and MP3 version.
Yeah, when you can get FLAC/ALAC directly, it's usually the best
option since it's closest to the source (usually). Have you played
with Blu-ray audio at all? Haven't really tried it, but having more
positional data or channels in the music might be cool.
I haven't played or used anything Blu-ray at all. Don't have a
player! I'm pretty 'low tech', so even if I did have the player, the
best audio system I've got is a 15-20 year old Pioneer basic sound
system. It really is just a CD player and radio with AUX input.
Usually, if something sounds and looks decent, good enough, I'm fine
with it.
It is quite rare for CDs stored in good conditions to degrade in such
a way that you get holes in the data which cannot be recovered.
On 4/6/22 02:43, Arelor wrote:
For the car, I just burn a remix CD with the stuff I may want to
listen to. I know it is very 90s, but if ain't broken, don't fix it.
I usually just use YouTube music over bluetooth, since I pay for YouTube anyway (n
commercials). I've added my own stuff to the library. Only
problem is when I lose cell signal on road trips, less of an issue each
year though. I'll never use Serious/XM again though.
I wouldn't mind finding a dedicated app for it, WinAmp for Android was really the best app I'd used, but long gone now. I have a USB option,
but larger drives don't work well in my car, and the built in UI is horrible.
I usually just use YouTube music over bluetooth, since I pay for YouTube anyway (n commercials). I've added my own stuff to the library. Only problem is when I lose cell signal on road trips, less of an issue each year though. I'll never use Serious/XM again though.
I wouldn't mind finding a dedicated app for it, WinAmp for Android was really the best app I'd used, but long gone now. I have a USB option, but larger drives don't work well in my car, and the built in UI is horrible.
Doesn't it rape your data plan into nothingness?
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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@REPLY: <624C1175.55803.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
Tue Apr 05 2022 07:49 pm
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <624B8D68.23005.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <62478E82.55774.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 4/1/22 16:45, Boraxman wrote:
Cracked cases can be easily replaced though. What is worse as I have
had happen, is when the CD is cracked. And the CD that I had cracked
was a rare one, almost impossible to get now.
Generally best to rip to ALAC/FLAC right away for those kinds of things, then store the CD in case of future issues. Of course, if you can download an ALAC/FLAC encoded from a better source (apple music, amazon, etc), that may be preferred. Also, possibly recoding to something lossy for portability.
Not sure how broad it is, but many services allow you to add your own sources, if you use them for music streaming depending on what you use on the go. There's also Plex etc.
That is what I do. I rip CD's I purchase to FLAC as a master, a backup, the encode to OGG for listening to on my computer. I do still use the CD, mainl in my car.
Once you got it as a FLAC file, you can reencode to any format later on with having to rip the CD again.
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC and MP3 version.
I just rip the CD to flac or ogg (depending on how much I appreciate
the particular album) and then place the CD in a safe location.
For the car, I just burn a remix CD with the stuff I may want to listen to. I know it is very 90s, but if ain't broken, don't fix it.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <624E275C.9039.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <624D6D8F.55822.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Apr 06 2022 08:31 pm
i'd rather just download the music unless i had something rare.
I still prefer the CD becaues I like the liner notes, and to be able to listen to it in my car, or my stereo system (which is relatively old).
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
i'm talking about damaged cds.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 4/6/22 03:31, Boraxman wrote:
I've ripped my entire CD catalog, and never had I heard chirps.
Used to be more of an issue... especially in the 90's when computers
were much slower. With EAC and other software, also ripping unscratched/new discs, it's not really an issue anymore.
My main reference to higher quality was really better than CD original/master.
--
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <62506028.23058.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <624D6D91.55823.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 4/6/22 03:34, Boraxman wrote:
I like buying from Bandcamp, as they usually offer an OGG, FLAC
and MP3 version.
Yeah, when you can get FLAC/ALAC directly, it's usually the best
option since it's closest to the source (usually). Have you played
with Blu-ray audio at all? Haven't really tried it, but having more
positional data or channels in the music might be cool.
I haven't played or used anything Blu-ray at all. Don't have a
player! I'm pretty 'low tech', so even if I did have the player, the
best audio system I've got is a 15-20 year old Pioneer basic sound
system. It really is just a CD player and radio with AUX input.
Usually, if something sounds and looks decent, good enough, I'm fine
with it.
Gotcha... I'm not really a snob, but do have a 5.2 setup in my main tv watching space (would do 5.2.4, but my bedroom is upstairs from that room). Mid-range AVR and speakers... though my slightly better AVR
died, and I want to get it fixed, since the temporary Yamaha I bought
kind of sucks by comparison.
Only really notice it all when watching certain movies, or positional audio demos... It's off the kitchen so can't really do rear speakers, main reason I'd want the .4 for Atmos. Of course that goes into another price class for AVR, which sucks.
I would recommend just using flac. Someone asked me about this, how to best preserve their music digitally, and I think having a FLAC "master rip" is the best way to go. I have on my external backup drive a FLAC rip of every CD I have. The first thing I do when I but a new CD is to rip it, encode it, then I will encode to OGG for my desktop and laptop. The desktop had enough space to store the flacs, but the laptop no, hence ogg.
I usually just use YouTube music over bluetooth, since I pay for
YouTube anyway (no commercials). I've added my own stuff to the
library. Only problem is when I lose cell signal on road trips,
less of an issue each year though. I'll never use Serious/XM again
though.
I wouldn't mind finding a dedicated app for it, WinAmp for Android
was really the best app I'd used, but long gone now. I have a USB
option, but larger drives don't work well in my car, and the built
in UI is horrible.
Doesn't it rape your data plan into nothingness?
If I streamed music during trips I would eat away my data assingnation pretty quickly. This is the main reason why I have a traditional radio
set in my store instead of a music streaming service - radio does not consume my data plan.
That's what I do. I've ripped all the CDs I have to FLAC format, and from there, I've also made MP3 versions to play on my various devices. If I want them in a different format, I can re-convert them from the FLAC versions.
Gotcha... I'm not really a snob, but do have a 5.2 setup in my main tv watchin
space (would do 5.2.4, but my bedroom is upstairs from that room). Mid-range
and speakers... though my slightly better AVR
died, and I want to get it fixed, since the temporary Yamaha I bought kind of sucks by comparison.
Only really notice it all when watching certain movies, or positional audio
demos... It's off the kitchen so can't really do rear speakers, main reason I
want the .4 for Atmos. Of course that goes into another price class for AVR,
which sucks.
I read messages like this and think that I sometimes think I'm being daft not
embracing newer entertainment technology, that I'm missing out on more than I think
I don't have bluray, only have a HD TV because someone gave it to me, only have the
Pioneer system because someone wanted to get rid of it.
I didn't make the jump to Bluramyself because of 3 reasons. The first one is that DVD suffices for me. The second one is that Bluray support is not stellar. The third one is that they may declare Bluray obsolete at any
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sun Apr 10 2022 07:59 am
I didn't make the jump to Bluramyself because of 3 reasons. The first one is t
DVD suffices for me. The second one is that Bluray support is not stellar. The
third one is that they may declare Bluray obsolete at any
What do you mean when you say Blu-ray support is not stellar?
Nightfox
Ah yes, that was also due to the earlier CD roms. I think you
are talking about jitter. I never had this either, but I think
it is because I had a high end Yamaha CD burner when I started
ripping music.
I remember some MP3's you'd get in the early 2000, very late
1990's had this problem.
Only really notice it all when watching certain movies, or
positional audio demos... It's off the kitchen so can't really
do rear speakers, main reason I'd want the .4 for Atmos. Of
course that goes into another price class for AVR, which sucks.
I read messages like this and think that I sometimes think I'm
being daft not embracing newer entertainment technology, that I'm
missing out on more than I think.
I don't have bluray, only have a HD TV because someone gave it to
me, only have the Pioneer system because someone wanted to get rid
of it.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on Sun Apr 10 2022 10:31 am
Gotcha... I'm not really a snob, but do have a 5.2 setup in my main watchin space (would do 5.2.4, but my bedroom is upstairs from that room). Mid-range and speakers... though my slightly better AVR died, and I want to get it fixed, since the temporary Yamaha I bough kind of sucks by comparison.
Only really notice it all when watching certain movies, or positiona audio demos... It's off the kitchen so can't really do rear speaker main reason I want the .4 for Atmos. Of course that goes into anothe price class for AVR, which sucks.
I read messages like this and think that I sometimes think I'm being daft not embracing newer entertainment technology, that I'm missing out on mor than I think
I don't have bluray, only have a HD TV because someone gave it to me, onl have the Pioneer system because someone wanted to get rid of it.
Having a good sound system for watching movies makes a difference. It is one the few Entertainment producs on which I think it is worth it to pour a big chunk of money, because a good sound system is something you pay once, lasts sempiternity, and you can keep enjoying for decades.
I didn't make the jump to Bluramyself because of 3 reasons. The first one that DVD suffices for me. The second one is that Bluray support is not stell The third one is that they may declare Bluray obsolete at any time they want voiding your investment in Bluray tech invalid.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
IIRC, it was a combination of immature software/process combined with evolving hardware and trouble keeping up with throughput on the drive
i/o channels. I had an AMD 5x86@133 with a cache module that seemed to keep up fine, and knew a lot of people with early Pentiums that didn't have an issue (~1995), but all the 486 users I knew had a lot of
trouble with ripping.
IIRC, it was a combination of immature software/process combined with evolving hardware and trouble keeping up with throughput on the drive
i/o channels. I had an AMD 5x86@133 with a cache module that seemed to keep up fine, and knew a lot of people with early Pentiums that didn't have an issue (~1995), but all the 486 users I knew had a lot of trouble with ripping. Also, many were using the audio connection, not digitally ripping the CD.
CD burners were a lot slower, I never had problems writing CDs, but they took a helluva long time. My Sparc 2 had a 1x Sony drive, the kind with a caddy that looked like a $10 CD case with a sliding door on the bottom (which, essentially, it was)
Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I had the same AMD CPU for a little while in the mid 90s (and I found
it could be safely overclocked to 160mhz by increasing the bus speed to 40mhz).
The mid-90s, were pretty crazy, CPU-wise. I remember phasing out my 386es at work - we had clock doubled Intel 486DXes, 486SX CPUs, Cyrix, IBM and AMD 486 clones, then when the Pentium came out AMD and Cyrix had their own competitors.
I was behind the times, I ran a 486DX/50 at work and an AMD 386/40 at home.
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
That's true. There were definitely more competitors in the CPU market
at the time. I also remember hearing that TI had made their own 486,
and there was also the IDT WinChip.
I think I started ripping my own CDs in the late 90s, and by then I had a faster PC, but I don't remember having any significant issues with ripping CDs.
Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I had the same AMD CPU for a little while in the mid 90s (and I found it could be safely overclocked to 160mhz by increasing the bus speed to 40mhz).
The mid-90s, were pretty crazy, CPU-wise. I remember phasing out my 386es at work - we had clock doubled Intel 486DXes, 486SX CPUs, Cyrix, IBM and AMD 486 clones, then when the Pentium came out AMD and Cyrix had their own competitors.
I was behind the times, I ran a 486DX/50 at work and an AMD 386/40 at home.
... Do you ever see inconsistencies in your world?It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments, and new CPU's were significantly different, notably faster. New graphics cards significantly different.
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments, and new CPUs were significantly different, notably faster. New graphics cards significantly different.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and my 12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments,
and new CPU's were significantly different, notably faster. New
graphics cards significantly different.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental
improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and my
12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads.
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments,
and new CPU's were significantly different, notably faster. New
graphics cards significantly different.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental
improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and
my 12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the
difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads.
How long does your pc take to "process" this:
http://kolico.ca/ftn
Excluding the initial download of the "data", all the graphic
rendering is performed locally and depends on processor speed.
On 4/15/22 10:36, Ogg wrote:
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the
difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads.
How long does your pc take to "process" this:
http://kolico.ca/ftn
Excluding the initial download of the "data", all the graphic
rendering is performed locally and depends on processor speed.
The status bar takes ~17.5s to finish ... after that, it's pretty much instant for the render part.
R9-5950x, 128gb ddr4@3600, RTX 3080, Edge browser, Ubuntu-Budgie 21.10
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <62599EA7.65213.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6258CA91.55885.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN
on Fri Apr 15 2022 11:29 am
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments, and new CPUs were significantly different, notably faster. New graphics cards significantly different.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and my 12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
That's also what I've been thinking for a long time. It's harder to notice increases in computer speeds these days.
I think one part of it is (from what I've heard) it has been moe and
more difficult to increase CPU clock speeds.
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads. For more everyday tasks like checking email, using a BBS, watching videos, etc., today's computer speeds are more than adequate for that. Years ago, it used to
be that upgrading to a faster CPU (or computer in general) would noticeably improve speeds for running your OS and doing daily tasks,
but now we're well beyond the point where we have fast enough computers that we don't really notice much difference when doing daily stuff like that.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <625A0D3A.23099.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6258CA91.55885.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 4/14/22 18:29, Boraxman wrote:
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments,
and new CPU's were significantly different, notably faster. New
graphics cards significantly different.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental
improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and
my 12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
When we passed the 1ghz mark it seems we get 10-20% faster every couple years... but as mentioned by many, for day to day, it doesn't really
get noticed much. SSDs and having enough ram are probably the biggest things for most people. And even from SATA SSD to NVME, only really notice when building/compiling a project. I'll definitely never work
on spinning drives again, though I have a NAS setup full of them.
My daughter is still using my handed down 2014 laptop without complaints... I did upgrade all the desktops over the past 2-3 years though. My older desktop was a bit over 5yo at upgrade and did notice
the difference, not like the old was unusable, just a notable
difference. (i7-4790K now r9-5950X)
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6259BB33.51146.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
@REPLY: <6258CA91.55885.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
It seemed at the time, there were a lot of exciting new developments,
and new CPU's were significantly different, notably faster. New
graphics cards significantly different.
Not to mention VLB, EISA, ISA, and later PCI.
Those days were the beginning of a love affair with *nix in IT. I
replaced a Mac-based email system called Quickmail (with gateways and
user loads, we needed 4 systems total for 70 people) with a single
desktop 486 system running BSD/OS.
These days, it seems it is just a series of slow incremental
improvements. I can barely tell the difference between a new PC and my
12 year old desktop, in day to day tasks.
I hear you. I just replaced a working 12-year old Core 2 quad system, mostly for SATA-3 and USB3. It worked just fine for some gaming and day
to day use.
Hello Nightfox!
** On Friday 15.04.22 - 09:34, Nightfox wrote to Boraxman:
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads.
How long does your pc take to "process" this:
http://kolico.ca/ftn
Excluding the initial download of the "data", all the graphic
The other reason is as you mentioned, you only notice it during heavy workloads, which is rare. The GUI, the interface for most programs is fast enough to keep pace.
How long does your pc take to "process" this:
http://kolico.ca/ftn
Excluding the initial download of the "data", all the graphic
rendering is performed locally and depends on processor speed.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Sat Apr 16 2022 04:23 pm
The other reason is as you mentioned, you only notice it during heavy workloads, which is rare. The GUI, the interface for most programs is fast enough to keep pace.
If you regularly do intensive work on your PC (such as video editing, data processing, or anything else requiring lots of CPU power), it can definitely be a benefit to upgrade to something faster. And as you said, they keep making instruction sets more efficient and adding more cores - I've seen more and more software these days that can make use of multiple cores.
Nightfox
Re: at the speeds CPUs run these days..
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Fri Apr 15 2022 01:36 pm
How long does your pc take to "process" this:
http://kolico.ca/ftn
Excluding the initial download of the "data", all the graphic
rendering is performed locally and depends on processor speed.
It took about 21 seconds for me. My CPU is an Intel i9-9900k. And not sure if it makes a difference, but I also have 32GB of RAM and my graphics card is an Nvidia RTX 3080 TI (12GB).
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <625B0368.65224.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <625A6547.55893.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on
Sat Apr 16 2022 04:23 pm
The other reason is as you mentioned, you only notice it during heavy workloads, which is rare. The GUI, the interface for most programs is fast enough to keep pace.
If you regularly do intensive work on your PC (such as video editing,
data processing, or anything else requiring lots of CPU power), it can definitely be a benefit to upgrade to something faster. And as you
said, they keep making instruction sets more efficient and adding more cores - I've seen more and more software these days that can make use
of multiple cores.
My wife wanted a laptop, so I get a Thinkpad T470. It's a
few years old, but would she notice the difference between
that and a new one which will cost 2-3 times as much? Not
at all. She wanted new, but spending an extra $1,000 for
effectively no real performance or functionality isn't
justifiable.
It's amazing the amount of money people are willing to
throw down, just for an interface which is *slightly*
easier to use, but then complain how everything costs so
much.
Hello Boraxman!
** On Saturday 16.04.22 - 16:26, Boraxman wrote to Tracker1:
My wife wanted a laptop, so I get a Thinkpad T470. It's a
few years old, but would she notice the difference between
that and a new one which will cost 2-3 times as much? Not
at all. She wanted new, but spending an extra $1,000 for
effectively no real performance or functionality isn't
justifiable.
It's amazing the amount of money people are willing to
throw down, just for an interface which is *slightly*
easier to use, but then complain how everything costs so
much.
Sometimes it's the design that wins one's heart. It could be
the feel of the keys. It could be the weight. It could be the
finish of the frame/cover, etc.
Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
When I wanted USB 3 for this machine, I just got a USB 3 addon card.
Works fine, and there are SATA cards you can have.
Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
When I wanted USB 3 for this machine, I just got a USB 3 addon card. Works fine, and there are SATA cards you can have.
My old system, a Dell T3400 did it's time and more. I could have kept adding on to it, b
decided it was better to ditch it and get something with what
I wanted built-in.
The old system had a core 2 quad, 8 GB of RAM and 4 SATA drives. The new system has an i
16 GB of RAM, 1 SSD and 1 SATA drive, and my UPS run time went from 14 minutes to 24 - w
a bigger monitor!
... Cut a vital connection
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Nightfox <=-
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
We fired up an 8 player Quake match and brought the network down.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Apr 15 2022 11:29 am
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads. For more everyday tasks like checking email, using a BBS, watching videos, etc., today's computer speeds are more than adequate for that. Years ago, it used to
be that upgrading to a faster CPU (or computer in general) would noticeably improve speeds for running your OS and doing daily tasks,
but now we're well beyond the point where we have fast enough computers that we don't really notice much difference when doing daily stuff like that.
grind to a halt. It was sad. Back then, IT investment was ridiculous as we were viewed solely as a cost center even though they'd be nowhere without us. It took twenty years for organizations to finally see the value of IT (mostly).
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Apr 15 2022 11:29 am
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice the difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads. For more everyday task
like checking email, using a BBS, watching videos, etc., today's computer
speeds are more than adequate for that. Years ago, it used to
be that upgrading to a faster CPU (or computer in general) would noticeably
improve speeds for running your OS and doing daily tasks,
but now we're well beyond the point where we have fast enough computers that
don't really notice much difference when doing daily stuff like that.
The increase in CPU speeds is lost on the every day consumer. Multitasking, background tasks, etc., are all benefiting from these higher performing systems,
the only way anything is actually realized is on applications and games that can
truly benefit from 3+ GHz CPUs. Hell, I have POWER8 and POWER9-based AIX systems
that are running in the high 3 and low 4Ghz range, 4 and 8 SMT, and half the applications running on them are barely utilizing 40% of the overall chip. Oh we
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a Phenom II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of it. For almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
Moore's law broke at the right time, when CPU's are good enough for desktop purposes.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a Phenom II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of it. For almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
Moore's law broke at the right time, when CPU's are good enough for desktop purposes.
Well said. Much of the processing power of today's CPU's is
reserved for many of the OS-specific background tasks and
activities - the sorts of things that automate tasks that, back
in the 1980s and 1990s, we used to manually execute on the MS-DOS command-prompt (such as defragmentation, disk optimization, and
search indexing). There's some solace in knowing that an
operating system is taking care of self-maintenance for you, but
there's also a tremendous loss of control.
There's little wonder that enthusiast and hobbying computing on
devices like the Raspberri Pi has really taken off.
I think it's worth mentioning that much/most of that operating system
"help" is Windows-specific.
Well..... Linux. ;-)
It has been harder to increase CPU speeds. My AMD Phenom II Quad Core, which was purchase in 2009 runs at 3.4GHz, modern CPU's don't run that much faster. They may have more cores, and more efficient instruction set. In the 90s, you
went from 12MHz to a few hundred.
...
We've reached a state where good enough, is really good enough. I mean, I'm still using a Thinkpad T43 as a laptop.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Dream Master to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 01:26 pm
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Apr 15 2022 11:29 am
Also, at the speeds CPUs run these days, it's just hard to notice th difference unless you're doing some heavy workloads. For more every like checking email, using a BBS, watching videos, etc., today's com speeds are more than adequate for that. Years ago, it used to
be that upgrading to a faster CPU (or computer in general) would not improve speeds for running your OS and doing daily tasks,
but now we're well beyond the point where we have fast enough comput don't really notice much difference when doing daily stuff like that
The increase in CPU speeds is lost on the every day consumer. Multitaski background tasks, etc., are all benefiting from these higher performing s the only way anything is actually realized is on applications and games t truly benefit from 3+ GHz CPUs. Hell, I have POWER8 and POWER9-based AIX that are running in the high 3 and low 4Ghz range, 4 and 8 SMT, and half applications running on them are barely utilizing 40% of the overall chip
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a P II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of it. almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
Moore's law broke at the right time, when CPU's are good enough for desktop purposes.
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a Phenom II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of it. For almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
Moore's Law originally covered circuit integration. People applied it to clock speeds and other benchmarks later. Once a speed limit was met, chip makers either widened the road or added more roads.
My wife wanted a laptop, so I get a Thinkpad T470. It's a few years
old, but would she notice the difference between that and a new one
which will cost 2-3 times as much? Not at all. She wanted new, but spending an extra $1,000 for effectively no real performance or functionality isn't justifiable.
It's amazing the amount of money people are willing to throw down,
just for an interface which is *slightly* easier to use, but then
complain how everything costs so much.
I wonder how many people do this kind of work with any regularity?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I am definitely spoiled. I tend to go near the top edge of consumer class every few years when I upgrade my desktop, not willing to make the leap to Workstation class. But it's often in the $3K+ range. Current system is getting close to 2yo now,
and not itching to really upgrade currently. It's literally the first computer I've ever had that didn't feel like I was bottle-necked somewhere regularly. Although video (re)encoding still takes longer
than I'd like, and AI upscaling is pretty slow too.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Fri Apr 29 2022 07:19 pm
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a Phe
II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of it. Fo
almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
Moore's law broke at the right time, when CPU's are good enough for desktop
purposes.
Well said. Much of the processing power of today's CPU's is reserved for many of
OS-specific background tasks and activities - the sorts of things that automate
tasks that, back in the 1980s and 1990s, we used to manually execute on the MS-DO
command-prompt (such as defragmentation, disk optimization, and search indexing).
There's some solace in knowing that an operating system is taking care of self-maintenance for you, but there's also a tremendous loss of control.
There's little wonder that enthusiast and hobbying computing on devices like the
Raspberri Pi has really taken off.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Gamgee to Kaelon on Fri Apr 29 2022 09:55 am
I think it's worth mentioning that much/most of that operating system "help" is Windows-specific.
Well stated. macOS certainly is pretty guilty of this sort of "help," too.
Well..... Linux. ;-)
Indeed. I've been enjoying messing around with a number of Linux variants over th
past 20 years, but to be honest, it's hard to break MS-DOS conventions of always
searching for AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS lines!
-=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-
On 4/15/2022 11:23 PM, Boraxman wrote:
It has been harder to increase CPU speeds. My AMD Phenom II Quad Core, which w
purchase in 2009 runs at 3.4GHz, modern CPU's don't run that much faster. They
have more cores, and more efficient instruction set. In the 90s, you
went from 12MHz to a few hundred.
You might be surprised, going from an i7-4790K to a Zen 2 Ryzen was a noticeable
improvement...
...
We've reached a state where good enough, is really good enough. I mean, I'm st
using a Thinkpad T43 as a laptop.
For most people, most of the time, I would agree that many systems from
the past ~10 years and most from the past 4 are good enough.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Fri Apr 29 2022 07:19 pm
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", a
Phenom II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slowness of
For almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enough.
I hear you. I had a 12 year old desktop that I'd upgraded from a 2.0 ghz Core 2 D
to a 2.6 ghz Core 2 Quad, and for desktop use it was more than fine. The only thi
that drove me to upgrade was the cost for memory (ECC memory) and a lack native
Windows 10 drivers. Then, I wanted to upgrade it to USB3; it would end up costing
more to ditch it.
I found an off-lease 3 year-old Dell with an i7, USB3 and 16 GB of RAM for $180,
as an added benefit the computer uses half the electricity of the old box.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I am definitely spoiled. I tend to go
near the top edge of consumer class every few years when I upgrade my desktop, not willing to make the leap to Workstation class. But it's
often in the $3K+ range. Current system is getting close to 2yo now,
and not itching to really upgrade currently. It's literally the first computer
I've ever had that didn't feel like I was bottle-necked
somewhere regularly. Although video (re)encoding still takes longer
than I'd like, and AI upscaling is pretty slow too.
For my job, a lot of that is highly tethered to disk performance, memory
and cache... which isn't too bad, except for one work project that takes over 20m to build (ugh)... my work computer may be back online soon, so
I'll have to start using that again when it is fixed/replaced (closer to
30m for said project). :-(
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
Even after all these years?? Well, you can edit rc.local, or .bashrc on Linux to get the same 'feeling'.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 07:34 pm
Even after all these years?? Well, you can edit rc.local, or .bashrc on Linux to get the same 'feeling'.
It's definitely hard to break old habits! Plus, when you grew up as I did in the 1980s around MS-DOS, you know of all the ways to tweak and perfect the OS. It's one of the reasons that I love MS-DOS 5.0 and 6.22!
-=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-
you shouldnt post your email address because it can be harvested on the web.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Fri Apr 29 2022 07:19 pm
I have a CPU on my main desktop that someone described as "really slow", Phenom II. Yet I almost an never inconvienienced by the supposed slownes of it. For almost all that I need to do, the computer is responsive enou
Moore's law broke at the right time, when CPU's are good enough for deskt purposes.
Well said. Much of the processing power of today's CPU's is reserved for man d-prompt (such as defragmentation, disk optimization, and search indexing).
There's little wonder that enthusiast and hobbying computing on devices like
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Fri Apr 29 2022 01:51 pm
Moore's Law originally covered circuit integration. People applied it t clock speeds and other benchmarks later. Once a speed limit was met, ch makers either widened the road or added more roads.
I haven't heard Moore's law applied to clock speeds and such. I thought Moo
Nightfox
I get the impression the adopters of single board pc's are aware of it's limit ations, but also are aware of what they can do with the extra IO and other integrated components. Sure, you can place linux on any old pc and learn to program in python, however the having a pc the size of a bar of soap makes it easier to lug around
Back in the 90's and early 2000's people were using Moore's law in term s of CPU's. They're weren't
using
it to define transistor integration, but more towards clock speeds of cpu's doubling every 18 months
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 07:34 pm
Even after all these years?? Well, you can edit rc.local, or .bashrc on Linux
get the same 'feeling'.
It's definitely hard to break old habits! Plus, when you grew up as I did in the
1980s around MS-DOS, you know of all the ways to tweak and perfect the OS. It's o
of the reasons that I love MS-DOS 5.0 and 6.22!
-=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-
I still play with it from time to time on my old 486, DOS 6.22 that is. It wasn't so much DOS I liked, as all the cool utilities and things you could make your system do. Real mode operating systems are fun.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 01:17 pm
I get the impression the adopters of single board pc's are aware of it's limit ations, but also are aware of what they can do with the extra IO an other integrated components. Sure, you can place linux on any old pc and learn to program in python, however the having a pc the size of a bar of soap makes it easier to lug around
Very well said. There's definitely a lot of enjoyment that I receive from us
just put on the edge of my router, and not have to add another rack to my s -=- Kaelon -=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sat Apr 30 2022 01:21 pm
Back in the 90's and early 2000's people were using Moore's law in term s using
it to define transistor integration, but more towards clock speeds of cpu
This was certainly the context in which I was remembering Moore's Law. I won
Is Moore's Law still true?
-=- Kaelon -=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 01 2022 04:03 pm
I still play with it from time to time on my old 486, DOS 6.22 that is. wasn't so much DOS I liked, as all the cool utilities and things you coul make your system do. Real mode operating systems are fun.
You are so right. Working to optimize CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was a real ker to "double" your diskspace and later RAM, remember that?!), but so many
A lot of people talk about Linux in this way, and while I have tinkered with ll honored for those of us who were lucky to pick it up when it was still be -=- Kaelon -=-
I still play with it from time to time on my old 486, DOS 6.22 that is. wasn't so much DOS I liked, as all the cool utilities and things you coul make your system do. Real mode operating systems are fun.
You are so right. Working to optimize CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was a real treat, especially when you got to load TSR-optimizers and other utilities th could really help you push the limits of your system. Some of these were gimmicks (I remember Stacker to "double" your diskspace and later RAM, remem that?!), but so many of them were empowering, especially when you got to see the fruits of your labor.
A lot of people talk about Linux in this way, and while I have tinkered with Linux for many years as I mentioned, I've never seen the same type of reward I've been enjoying iDOS on my iPad (now, unfortunately, discontinued and blocked by Apple, but still honored for those of us who were lucky to pick i up when it was still being offered by litchie, the developer), and it's incredible just how much power even the emulators have.
I still play with it from time to time on my old 486, DOS 6.22 that is. wasn't so much DOS I liked, as all the cool utilities and things you coul make your system do. Real mode operating systems are fun.
You are so right. Working to optimize CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was a real treat, especially when you got to load TSR-optimizers and other utilities th could really help you push the limits of your system. Some of these were gimmicks (I remember Stacker to "double" your diskspace and later RAM, remem that?!), but so many of them were empowering, especially when you got to see the fruits of your labor.
A lot of people talk about Linux in this way, and while I have tinkered with Linux for many years as I mentioned, I've never seen the same type of reward I've been enjoying iDOS on my iPad (now, unfortunately, discontinued and blocked by Apple, but still honored for those of us who were lucky to pick i up when it was still being offered by litchie, the developer), and it's incredible just how much power even the emulators have.
-=- Kaelon -=-
I handed him a copy of Computer Shopper that I had used to find and order the parts. One time I mentioned to a co-worker installed ramdisk to speed things up, and I heard a day later from one of our lead techs that our boss asked
him if we stocked ram disks, and see if the inventory had dropped. The lead tech explained to him ramdisk was part of DOS. I wish I was there to witness that. The funniest moment was when he tried to write me up for playing games during work time. My work pc only had company issued software and windows.
Linux is a different reward, no so much about getting down to a raw level, but about being able to configure your system, your shell and gui. It's not like DOS, but you have more ability to trim things back than you do with MacOS and windows.
Does Windows defragment in the background? Search indexing may take a bit of CPU time, but it wouldn't run constantly, and disk optimisation wouldn't be needed all the time.
Back in the 90's and early 2000's people were using Moore's law in
term s of CPU's. They're weren't using
it to define transistor integration, but more towards clock speeds of
cpu's doubling every 18 months
This was certainly the context in which I was remembering Moore's Law. I wonder when it stopped applying to speed and performance and started applying to other characteristics?
I still play with it from time to time on my old 486, DOS 6.22 that
is. It wasn't so much DOS I liked, as all the cool utilities and
things you could make your system do. Real mode operating systems are
fun.
You are so right. Working to optimize CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was a real treat, especially when you got to load TSR-optimizers and other utilities that could really help you push the limits of your system. Some
I still miss the incredible power - often wrought by the ridiculous simplicity! - of MS-DOS. While I get my fix from customizing iDOS 2 and other brews of DOSBox, it's not quite the same having system-level access the way you could with MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6.22.
Moore's Law specifically refers to the number of transistors on an integrated circuit doubling about every 2 years (I remember hearing 18 months): https://www.synopsys.com/glossary/what-is-moores-law.html
Yeah, I think one of the best tools for memory optimization was QEMM.
Sometimes I miss that too. DOS seemed like the wild west of operating systems though.. It was fairly minimal and let programs do pretty much whatever they want - And programs often had to do their own thing for hardware access because DOS didn't have much of a standard to allow software to interface with audio devices, graphics cards, etc.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 07:30 pm
Does Windows defragment in the background? Search indexing may take a bit of CPU time, but it wouldn't run constantly, and disk optimisation wouldn't be needed all the time.
I doubt Windows defragments in the background by default. If you're using
Moore's Law specifically refers to the number of transistors on an integrated circuit doubling about every 2 years (I remember hearing 18 months): https://www.synopsys.com/glossary/what-is-moores-law.html
So as written, that's what it applies to. If people are applying it to other things, I think they are misconstruing Moore's law.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
I still miss the incredible power - often wrought by the
ridiculous simplicity! - of MS-DOS. While I get my fix from
customizing iDOS 2 and other brews of DOSBox, it's not quite the
same having system-level access the way you could with MS-DOS 5
and MS-DOS 6.22.
It definitely makes me want to build a collection of retro DOS
files and make them available on a BBS again for the like-minded!
I doubt Windows defragments in the background by default. If you're
using
are you sure? i thought it ran whenever it was needed in the background on windows 7+
I do too. In many ways I feel like the peak of my computer abilities,
and knowledge, and especially *enjoyment* of things ended in the late
90's, when Windows/GUI stuff took over. The tweaking and batch file
magic was just so great.
Does Windows defragment in the background? Search indexing may take a
bit of CPU time, but it wouldn't run constantly, and disk optimisation wouldn't be needed all the time.
I'm not actually sure where all the CPU power that windows is using is going. I use Linux, so CPU background noise is very small. Looking
at processor using, I see pulseaudio using 2% (Why, I don't know)which
seems high, and that is pretty much it.
So it really more about not burning through resources and creating
waste and getting caught up in the "upgrade" treadmill.
We should be seeking to make the hardware we have last as long as
possible, incuding software support. I think our priority, where we
churn hardware to save software development time is muddled headed.
Plus, when you grew up as I did in the 1980s around MS-DOS, you know
of all the ways to tweak and perfect the OS. It's one of the reasons
that I love MS-DOS 5.0 and 6.22!
Back in the 90's and early 2000's people were using Moore's law in
term s of CPU's. They're weren't using it to define transistor
integration, but more towards clock speeds of cpu's doubling every
18 months
This was certainly the context in which I was remembering Moore's Law.
I wonder when it stopped applying to speed and performance and started applying to other characteristics?
Is Moore's Law still true?
The 386 that was lent to me was configured to use DoubleSpace, as it
only had a 65M hard drive, which was quite tight. After a work, I
whittled down the files so I could get rid of DoubleSpace (It took
AAAGGEES to defrag) and went to using the raw disk. Never loaded much
else in terms of TSR's, preferring to keep my system lean. I did use DOSKEY, but apart from that, the mouse driver, and maybe SMARTDRV,
that was it.
Linux is a different reward, no so much about getting down to a raw
level, but about being able to configure your system, your shell and
gui. It's not like DOS, but you have more ability to trim things back
than you do with MacOS and windows.
Started out with DOS myself.. and tbh, not even sure where I'd look up how to set/configure a sound card etc these days in DOS. Let alone some of the more advanced stuff (drivers in himem, etc). I remember they exist, but nothing of actually configuring/tuning...
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun May 01 2022 11:46 pm
I handed him a copy of Computer Shopper that I had used to find and order the parts. One time I mentioned to a co-worker installed ramdisk to spee things up, and I heard a day later from one of our lead techs that our bo asked
him if we stocked ram disks, and see if the inventory had dropped. The l tech explained to him ramdisk was part of DOS. I wish I was there to witness that. The funniest moment was when he tried to write me up for playing games during work time. My work pc only had company issued softw and windows.
This entire story is incredible! And totally believable. I miss the antics cene was a big part of what ensured I was always on the "cutting" or "bleedi
I subscribed to Sierra On-Line's gaming magazine newsletter (later known as that I love are the ones of frustrated 'gamers' calling Sierra's support lat ut where to insert his CD-ROM disc, but he remarked: "At least the PC comes
I love stories like that!
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon May 02 2022 04:05 pm
I doubt Windows defragments in the background by default. If you're
using
are you sure? i thought it ran whenever it was needed in the background on windows 7+
No, I'm not sure, but considering defragmenting is bad for SSDs, I doubt it would be enabled by default - perhaps on newer versions of Windows.
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Mon May 02 2022 06:51 pm
Linux is a different reward, no so much about getting down to a raw level, but about being able to configure your system, your shell and gui. It's not like DOS, but you have more ability to trim things back than you do with MacOS and windows.
Good point. The customization factor for Linux is definitely part of
the appeal, for sure. In my case, I like sampling different flavors of Linux - and I often check out Linus Tech Tips on YouTube to see what they're experimenting with to see if I want to experiment on the
vintage. In another thread, I recommended elementaryOS, which is a
pretty simplistic but macOS-like derivative that helped revive my aging MacBook Pro for basic email, web surfing, and word processing tasks.
I still miss the incredible power - often wrought by the ridiculous simplicity! - of MS-DOS. While I get my fix from customizing iDOS 2 and other brews of DOSBox, it's not quite the same having system-level
access the way you could with MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6.22.
It definitely makes me want to build a collection of retro DOS files
and make them available on a BBS again for the like-minded! _____
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Sat Apr 30 2022 07:30 pm
Does Windows defragment in the background? Search indexing may take a bit of CPU time, but it wouldn't run constantly, and disk optimisation wouldn't be needed all the time.
I doubt Windows defragments in the background by default. If you're
using an SSD (which are fairly common these days), that would actually
be a bad idea. I've heard SSDs don't need to be defragmented because there would be no benefit, since SSDs provide random access everywhere.
So, defragmenting an SSD would only use up the limited reads and
writes, which would only be bad for the SSD.
If you still have a platter drive, defragmenting it could still provide some benefit though.
Nightfox
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 4/30/22 02:30, Boraxman wrote:
Does Windows defragment in the background? Search indexing may take a
bit of CPU time, but it wouldn't run constantly, and disk optimisation wouldn't be needed all the time.
For HDDs, iirc, since Windows 7/8, there's an auto defrag scheduled
task (skipping ssds), or maybe you can just create one... I've run
mostly SSDs for over a decade.
Note: for an SSD, do not defragment, the OS and Drive should support
TRIM commands which remove old references, you don't want to rearrange
on an SSD as that will reduce the life and not improve seek time. All drive locations are virtualized under the SSD controller, not real addressing.
I'm not actually sure where all the CPU power that windows is using is going. I use Linux, so CPU background noise is very small. Looking
at processor using, I see pulseaudio using 2% (Why, I don't know)which
seems high, and that is pretty much it.
Depends on what is installed... Windows seems to run a few % slower
than Linux and take a few hundred mb of ram more at startup.
On your pulseaudio, again, not sure... most modern audio chipsets are
at least partially software driven, so could be that.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 4/30/22 02:45, Boraxman wrote:
So it really more about not burning through resources and creating
waste and getting caught up in the "upgrade" treadmill.
My old systems are always handed off... sometimes to immediate family,
or friends. My old i7-4790K is still being used by a friend of mine.
We should be seeking to make the hardware we have last as long as
possible, incuding software support. I think our priority, where we
churn hardware to save software development time is muddled headed.
I agree... and for the most part it depends on what you are doing... I would say, for me it's often about the time and opportunity cost. My
time is pretty precious to me, especially my free time. If I can get another 10% done in a day from faster hardware, then it's usually worth the cost. Not always worth the 2-3 days of install/upgrade of missing things.
For the past few years, a lot of software is written to scale
horizontally instead of vertically... when you're targeting that kind
of scaling, it becomes less important to churn a production
environment... but for local software dev, often more important as
there are more pieces to run local... Though some are taking all their
dev to cloud too... spin up the entire environment in the cloud,
dev/work on pieces local and tear it down at the end of the day... this can include the dev environment and tools themselves.
Of course, it varies... if you can spend under $200k on a new server
for an older application, or $millions over a couple years to tune an application ($millions) with high risk of failure, what would you
rather do? --
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
Kaelon wrote to Nightfox <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Nightfox to Kaelon on
Mon May 02 2022 11:10 am
Sometimes I miss that too. DOS seemed like the wild west of operating systems though.. It was fairly minimal and let programs do pretty much whatever they want - And programs often had to do their own thing for hardware access because DOS didn't have much of a standard to allow software to interface with audio devices, graphics cards, etc.
I think it was part of the fact that DOS was the "wild west" of
operating systems, and that programs could access essentially any piece
of the exposed I/O, that gave the sense of this incredible power and control. You knew exactly what your machine was doing.
I remember fondly listening to my BBS late at night, and I knew by the sound that my hard drive's needle was making on the spinning platters whether a user was uploading something, downloading something, reading bases, or logging on or off. You knew, without a doubt, that when something was running in DOS, that and only what you explicitly
authorized to run memory-resident, was executing. _____
As for Linux, being a veteran user of it for two decades, I would recommend against switching from distro to distro. There is little to be gained as they are all basically the same OS underneath. Find one that works, and get to know it well.
The best way to defrag is to move all files off, format, and copy them all back on,
and don't use FAT32 (or if using Linux, use a Linux filesystem and
not a Windows one).
Started out with DOS myself.. and tbh, not even sure where I'd look up
how to set/configure a sound card etc these days in DOS. Let alone some
of the more advanced stuff (drivers in himem, etc). I remember they
exist, but nothing of actually configuring/tuning... Same goes for OS/2, used to work support, including OS/2 for iomega, and remember nothing of
any of it.
Now it's more about conceptual understanding, enough to get going, and enough to know what to google for. It's a very different world today.
It's always been about transistor density... It was originally 12-18
months and this corresponded with computing that was twice as fast.
Excel and Word from the bins and anything else we needed. One of the lan admins set us up with Novell client, since the IT service desk techs hardly ever stepped out of the office area and service bay was in the back behind the manufacturing line and parts area.
I have a fairly large archive of DOS programs, utilities, games and miscellaneous errata on my archive drive. Utilities, copies of old shareware CD's, stuff I've downloaded over the years, including files from my BBS days in the mid 90s. Some of it hard to find, such as obscure freeware gag games and a few utilities I've found and been given ages ago.
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get some networking with DOS working and it was a pain. I settled on etherdfs.
The harddrive on the Amstrad PC2386/65 I was lent sounded like boiling water when it was going! I still prefer the whirring sound of the XT, and being able to load floppy disks into it, hearing them work away. Using a computer was a more tactile affair back then, they had a distinct feel and sound.
SSD's do still suffer from performance degradation due to file fragmentation. SSD's write data in larger blocks, and will need to shuffle data if the free space is fragmented. Other benchmarks I've seen indicate that a fragmented SSD will affect read speeds as well. You wouldn't need to defragment it as often as a hard drive, but in some cases, of severe fragmentation it may be beneficial.
I still miss the incredible power - often wrought by the ridiculous
simplicity! - of MS-DOS. While I get my fix from customizing iDOS 2
and other brews of DOSBox, it's not quite the same having
system-level access the way you could with MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6.22.
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get some networking with DOS working and it was a pain.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 03 2022 07:05 pm
SSD's do still suffer from performance degradation due to file fragmentation. SSD's write data in larger blocks, and will need to shuffle data if the free space is fragmented. Other benchmarks I've seen indicate that a fragmented SSD will affect read speeds as well. You wouldn't need to defragment it as often as a hard drive, but in some cases, of severe fragmentation it may be beneficial.
This is the first time I've ever seen someone say defragmenting an SSD can be beneficial.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
For HDDs, iirc, since Windows 7/8, there's an auto defrag scheduled
task (skipping ssds), or maybe you can just create one... I've run
mostly SSDs for over a decade.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
My old systems are always handed off... sometimes to immediate family,
or friends. My old i7-4790K is still being used by a friend of mine.
We should be seeking to make the hardware we have last as long as
possible, incuding software support. I think our priority, where we
churn hardware to save software development time is muddled headed.
Tracker1 wrote to Kaelon <=-
Started out with DOS myself.. and tbh, not even sure where I'd look up
how to set/configure a sound card etc these days in DOS.
some of the more advanced stuff (drivers in himem, etc). I remember
they exist, but nothing of actually configuring/tuning... Same goes for OS/2, used to work support, including OS/2 for iomega, and remember nothing of any of it.
I also spent the better part of a decade working in eLearning, and
having to learn not only the programming software/tools/languages but
also the domain knowledge of a lot of the coursees being designed and worked on. I learned and forgot several lifetimes of job skills over
that decade. Including a lot of time working on courseware for jet
engine mechanics and would have trouble describing how one works at
this point.
Now it's more about conceptual understanding, enough to get going, and enough to know what to google for. It's a very different world today.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
---
- Synchronet - Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
Been really happy with my Budgie setup for the UI side... not fond of
the handful of things I still reboot to my windows drive for.
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in
process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get
some networking with DOS working and it was a pain. I settled on etherdfs.
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The harddrive on the Amstrad PC2386/65 I was lent sounded like boiling water when it was going! I still prefer the whirring sound of the XT,
and being able to load floppy disks into it, hearing them work away.
Using a computer was a more tactile affair back then, they had a
distinct feel and sound.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
For HDDs, iirc, since Windows 7/8, there's an auto defrag scheduled task (skipping ssds), or maybe you can just create one... I've run mostly SSDs for over a decade.
The OS defrag never did a great job. I'd use MyDefrag and see a significant speed difference, *after* WIndows had been defragging the drive.
I don't miss those days.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue May 03 2022 07:03 pm
As for Linux, being a veteran user of it for two decades, I would recommend against switching from distro to distro. There is little to be gained as they are all basically the same OS underneath. Find one that works, and get to know it well.
you're painting that with a very broad brush.
there's differences, certainly enough that will make people choose one over another. ---
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 03 2022 07:05 pm
The best way to defrag is to move all files off, format, and copy them all back on,
if you move all the files off you don't need to format i'm pretty sure.
and don't use FAT32 (or if using Linux, use a Linux filesystem and
not a Windows one).
fat32? hows those windows 98 updates doing?
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Tue May 03 2022 07:03 pm
I have a fairly large archive of DOS programs, utilities, games and miscellaneous errata on my archive drive. Utilities, copies of old shareware CD's, stuff I've downloaded over the years, including files from my BBS days in the mid 90s. Some of it hard to find, such as obscure freeware gag games and a few utilities I've found and been given ages ago.
That's wonderful! I know that the Internet Archive maintains an
extensive DOS library, but it's all of the rare stuff - files that were usually shared on BBS'es - that really interests me. It's very hard to find and, depending upon who you talk to, quite an archivist's dream
come true! Have you thought about making your miscellaneous errate,
etc., available on a BBS? (Or have you already done that? Sorry, I'm
still getting up to speed on our "modern" BBS scene.)
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get some networking with DOS working and it was a pain. I settled on etherdfs.
Well said. I liked the illusion of power, either way, as a 6 year old
who discovered it in 1986, by the time I was 9, I knew how to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS, and basically tinker with all of the settings. I found things like having to download or install drivers,
just to be able to do basic things and access the hardware. It was
pretty rewarding! _____
Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Tue May 03 2022 07:21 pm
The harddrive on the Amstrad PC2386/65 I was lent sounded likeboiling water
when it was going! I still prefer the whirring sound of the XT, and being able to load floppy disks into it, hearing them work away. Using a computer was a more tactile affair back then, they had a distinct feel and sound.
I love that using a computer was a more tactile affair back then,
though! There was a true physical sense of ownership of the machine, a much more intimate relationship with the technology. If you look at software today, everything "lives in the cloud" and you don't really
own it. This whole monthly license is a racket, and it disintermediates users from the very technology that they use. I guess this is a broader commentary on just how "cracked up" our entire digital society is.
_____
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Tue May 03 2022 07:03 pm
I still miss the incredible power - often wrought by the ridiculous
simplicity! - of MS-DOS. While I get my fix from customizing iDOS 2
and other brews of DOSBox, it's not quite the same having
system-level access the way you could with MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6.22.
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get some networking with DOS working and it was a pain.
By "powerful", I think what he was talking about was the fact that DOS
was not very restrictive with what you could do, so you could
potentially do pretty much anything with your PC, and DOS allowed
direct access to the hardware. At least from a software development standpoint, the sky was the limit. As opposed to modern operating
systems like Windows and Linux, which have some restrictions on what they'll allow software to do (which can be a good thing; modern
operating systems tend to protect against certain bad actions).
Nightfox
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
DOS wasn't actually all that powerful. It had very rudimentary in
process communication, very little in the way of functionality. If you wanted to send a file to another computer, you needed to download additional software to get any type of networking. I did try to get
some networking with DOS working and it was a pain. I settled on etherdfs.
I ran LANTastic networking with DOS, and it was a game changer. Back in 1992, I could share a screen, print to another PC's printer, turn one computer into a shared drive, and so on - all of the things you think about when you think of a modern networked OS.
Kaelon wrote to Tracker1 <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Tracker1 to Kaelon on
Mon May 02 2022 06:26 pm
Started out with DOS myself.. and tbh, not even sure where I'd look up
how to set/configure a sound card etc these days in DOS. Let alone some
of the more advanced stuff (drivers in himem, etc). I remember they
exist, but nothing of actually configuring/tuning... Same goes for OS/2, used to work support, including OS/2 for iomega, and remember nothing of
any of it.
You'd be surprised at just how large the retro-DOS community is out
there. Check out the exoDOS project, in particular, and the countless Reddit subreddits dedicated to DOS computing. There are a lot of people who really appreciate the directness of the operating system, and so
there are a lot of min-maxers. Also, Retro-PC building is a thing. A
few years ago, I ended up paying $800 to buy a "new" old-stock 486/66 system, complete with manuals for the MS-DOS 6.22 and everything. It's
a crazy scene out there.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Tracker1 <=-
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Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
For HDDs, iirc, since Windows 7/8, there's an auto defrag scheduled
task (skipping ssds), or maybe you can just create one... I've run
mostly SSDs for over a decade.
The OS defrag never did a great job. I'd use MyDefrag and see a significant speed difference, *after* WIndows had been defragging the drive.
I don't miss those days.
fat32? hows those windows 98 updates doing?
Few and far between! I use FAT32 because its compatible with FreeDos.
The OS defrag never did a great job. I'd use MyDefrag and see a significant speed difference, *after* WIndows had
been defragging the drive.
The OS defrag never did a great job. I'd use MyDefrag and see a
significant speed difference, *after* WIndows had been defragging the
drive.
what os are you talking about?
if you ran a defrag program AFTER windows defrag you're just wasting time. run one or another.
i never noticed ANY speed difference with fast or slow computers when i defragged.
The retro scene is crazy, as are the prices. I bought a 486 for $50 20 years ago, and the other was given to me!
I remember the first time I found a defrag program for my Atari ST. I probably had been using my 20mb HDD for close to a year and "found" a defrag program. I had no idea what it did, but I ran it. It did some HDD stuff, and when it was done my HDD was nearly silent (which was a big deal back then), and my startup dropped from a few minutes to a couple seconds.
Of course the defrag program back then had ZERO safety when moving the data around. I had a power failure in the middle of a defrag once and wiped the FAT clean. Probably wasn't that bad, but I remember "starting over". Good times.
for it. I thought that was good at the time (it had a bit of a retro following even back then), but I could probably make a mint on it now if I still had it and sold it now.
In the early-mid 90s, when I primarily ran DOS, I remember using a drive defragmenter that did a fairly good job of moving data all together (I think it was part of Norton Utilities for DOS). I think I only ever noticed a small increase in speed after defragmenting my drive.
In 2000, I sold my whole collection on eBay and got about $200
for it. I thought that was good at the time (it had a bit of a retro
following even back then), but I could probably make a mint on it now
if I still had it and sold it now.
That's the thing with collectibles. The longer you wait, the higher you'll get generally. It's hard to know when it's a good time to pull the trigger.
You also have to know where to sell. You won't get as much in a local flea market as what you could get on eBay, for example, where actual collectors are more numerous. Flea markets are good for buyers, not for sellers.
and had also bought one of the portable units which played the same
When I sold that stuff, I didn't really think I'd get much money from it (though still, I knew there was an interest in it). I never considered something like that would (probably) be worth so much more now, so I didn't think about holding onto it. I didn't know retro video games would be so popular 20+ years later.
Yeah, I have to be honest. I keep the shit because I'm still attached to it. Just glad to see that I'm not the only weirdo attached to the past :-)
I never bought stuff intending to keep it in the box and never used it so that one day I would sell it at a profit.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Wed May 04 2022 08:46 pm
The retro scene is crazy, as are the prices. I bought a 486 for $50 20 years ago, and the other was given to me!
It is crazy. I wish I still had my TurboGrafX-16 game console. I
bought it new in 1993 on clearance for $40 when the store wanted to get rid of their inventory (other game consoles such as the Super Nintendo
and Sega Genesis had become far more popular). Over a few years, I
bought several games for it (I was able to find some deals at local
pawn shops and thrift stores), and had also bought one of the portable units which played the same cartridges. In 2000, I sold my whole collection on eBay and got about $200 for it. I thought that was good
at the time (it had a bit of a retro following even back then), but I could probably make a mint on it now if I still had it and sold it now.
Nightfox
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed May 04 2022 09:11 am
In the early-mid 90s, when I primarily ran DOS, I remember using a drive defragmenter that did a fairly good job of moving data all together (I think it was part of Norton Utilities for DOS). I think I only ever noticed a small increase in speed after defragmenting my drive.
yeah i had that also. i think a lot of it was placebo effect. supposely all those things were fixing up your computer, but i doubt they did.
when things really went south, they didn't save me. ---
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Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-
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Re: Re: Retro computers and electronics
By: Ennev to Nightfox on
Wed May 04 2022 02:45 pm
Yeah, I have to be honest. I keep the shit because I'm still attached to it. Just glad to see that I'm not the only weirdo attached to the past :-)
Understandable. I tend to be nostalgic about things sometimes. :)
But there have only been a few things I feel like I've been a bit
attached to and wouldn't want to part with. I enjoy playing retro
video games, but they can be emulated on modern hardware, so I've
debated whether I'd want the actual hardware or not. And when I go
back and play an actual old game console, even though I enjoy it, I
feel like it's now more convenient to just load a game in an emulator rather than get out a cartridge, insert it, possible deal with having
to clean it off before it will work, etc.. :P
I never bought stuff intending to keep it in the box and never used it so that one day I would sell it at a profit.
Usually I don't either. I buy stuff that I think will be fun and/or useful to me. Sometimes those things just happen to become collectable after a while.
As far as gaming, several old game companies have released their 'mini' consoles (which look like their old game consoles but are emulators
with a bunch of ROMs loaded onto them, which have a HDMI connection to output to a modern TV). I bought a Super Nintendo Classic Mini the
second time they were released to stores in 2018 and was able to get
one at the regular price. I've modded it and added more games, and I still have it. Now that Nintendo has stopped making those, I imagine someone would buy it where I'd make a profit, but it's not something
I'm interested in selling right now.
Nightfox
Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The retro scene is crazy, as are the prices. I bought a 486 for $50 20 years ago, and the other was given to me!
Boraxman wrote to Nightfox <=-
I regret selling my older computers, and not keeping them. At the
time, the few dollars seemed worth it, now, not so much.
console, even though I enjoy it, I feel like it's now more convenient to just load a game in an emulator rather than get out a cartridge, insert it, possible deal with having to clean it off before it will work, etc.. :P
As far as gaming, several old game companies have released their 'mini' consoles (which look like their old game consoles but are emulators with a bunch of ROMs loaded onto them, which have a HDMI connection to output to a modern TV). I bought a Super Nintendo Classic Mini the second time they were released to stores in 2018 and was able to get one at the regular price. I've modded it and added more games, and I still have it. Now that Nintendo has stopped making those, I imagine someone would buy it where I'd make a profit, but it's not something I'm interested in selling right now.
That being said, even though I have a C64, I still use an emulator more (on the rare occasion I want to play a C64 game) because of convienience and not touching "my precious". Even with DOS games, I will use DOSBox more than the real hardware, even though I have some 486's. I will use the old technology whne I want to use an authentic CRT, hear the SoundBlaster Pro, or play with the hardware itself.
That being said, even though I have a C64, I still use an emulator more (on the rare occasion I want to play a C64 game) because of convienience and not touching "my precious". Even with DOS games, I will use DOSBox more than the real hardware, even though I have some 486's. I will use the old technology whne I want to use an authentic CRT, hear the SoundBlaster Pro, or play with the hardware itself.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-
The retro scene is crazy, as are the prices. I bought a 486 for $50 20 years ago, and the other was given to me!
Some of those thin client PCs look like they might run DOS/Windows
3.1, but have support for modern peripherals like USB. You don't get
the hardware feel, but could run the old apps just fine.
That being said, I'd love to have a throwback system with a CRT
monitor - either a 486/50 or a Mac IIci.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Nightfox <=-
I regret selling my older computers, and not keeping them. At the
time, the few dollars seemed worth it, now, not so much.
It wasn't so much the money as it was not wanting to move them or
have room to store them. Had I had the room, I would have kept an
AT&T 6300, an Osborne 1, and a Compaq Portable II that I'd had at one
time or another.
Oh, and a 286/12 system I found holding up a shelf at work. I loaded
MINIX on it and had my own little multiuser system and a web site on
the internet early on. But, that's a story for another day.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Retro computers and e
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on
Thu May 05 2022 08:33 pm
That being said, even though I have a C64, I still use an emulator more (on the rare occasion I want to play a C64 game) because of convienience and not touching "my precious". Even with DOS games, I will use DOSBox more than the real hardware, even though I have some 486's. I will use the old technology whne I want to use an authentic CRT, hear the SoundBlaster Pro, or play with the hardware itself.
I've thought of buying an older (perhaps 486) PC for authentic gaming,
but I'm not sure I'd use it much. Emulation with DOSBox seems to do a fairly good job in most cases. A couple years ago I was a little surprised I was even able to run Microsoft Flight Simulator 5.1 and Windows 3.1 within DOSBox.
Some months ago, I heard about this RetroWave OPL3 sound device someone made which has an actual OPL3 sound chip on it: https://www.tindie.com/products/sudomaker/retrowave-opl3-sound-card/ It can be paired with one of these to plug into your PC via USB: https://www.tindie.com/products/sudomaker/potatopi-pico24-development-bo ard/ That will provide a hardware solution to give you AdLib sound on a modern PC. There's a build of DOSBOx that has an option to enable
routing AdLib data to that device so you can have actual AdLib audio
from games using DOSBox.
Nightfox
Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-
Yes, and using tech from the 90s and older starts to be a risk too with capacitors starting to leak(not just chemically) sometime you can
damage the hardware seriously just by powering it on.
Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-
Yes, and using tech from the 90s and older starts to be a risk too with capacitors starting to leak(not just chemically) sometime you can damage the hardware seriously just by powering it on.
Be careful powering up a Dell GX270 from the 2010s, too. It's not
just retro hardware, it's worth taking a cursory look at the caps on
any older system.
Dell had a real problem on their hands with the GX270 - the caps were
in the path of the power supply exhaust fan, and prematurely
popped/leaked. They'd end up looking like popcorn.
I replaced a bunch of them at work, and some of the replacements were
equally bad.
... SURELY NOT EVERYONE WAS KUNG FU FIGHTINGThe Dell GX620 small form factor desktops were also made during the
You can turn any machine into a Linux thin client fairly easily. I used this 20 years ago, to be able to use my "modern" Linux machine from a 486, or allow my sister to use my computer (and access the internet) from her older machine in her bedroom.
Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-
Yes, and using tech from the 90s and older starts to be a risk too with capacitors starting to leak(not just chemically) sometime you can damage the hardware seriously just by powering it on.
Be careful powering up a Dell GX270 from the 2010s, too. It's not
just retro hardware, it's worth taking a cursory look at the caps on
any older system.
Dell had a real problem on their hands with the GX270 - the caps were
in the path of the power supply exhaust fan, and prematurely
popped/leaked. They'd end up looking like popcorn.
I replaced a bunch of them at work, and some of the replacements were
equally bad.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
You can turn any machine into a Linux thin client fairly easily. I used this 20 years ago, to be able to use my "modern" Linux machine from a 486, or allow my sister to use my computer (and access the internet) from her older machine in her bedroom.
i had some asus netbooks that couldn't run linux.
--- NIGHTFOX wrote --- Re: Re: Cracked cases By:
Kaelon to Boraxman on Sun May 01 2022 02:03 pm
You are so right. Working to optimize CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT wasa
real treat, especially when you got to load TSR-optimizers and other utilities that could really help you push the limits of your system.Some
Yeah, I think one of the best tools for memory optimization was QEMM.
They had their own XMS and EMS drivers (from what I recall) and their own tools for optimizing RAM and placing as much as possible in high memory, EMS, etc. Later, when Microsoft included their memmaker tool for MS-DOS 6.0, I thought it was nice that they had that, but it seemed QEMM still
did a better job.
the doctor wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-
Yeah, I think one of the best tools for memory optimization was QEMM.
They had their own XMS and EMS drivers (from what I recall) and their own tools for optimizing RAM and placing as much as possible in high memory,
Gross. I remember spending at least 8 hours trying to find the right memory addresses to exclude to make a (I think defective) Miro video
card work with Windows 3.1 I miss that almost as much as OS/2 (:
Cool.. Ubuntu Budgie as well. Have mine configured as a bit of a mix ofBeen really happy with my Budgie setup for the UI side... not fond of
the handful of things I still reboot to my windows drive for.
I've been using Ubuntu Budgie on one of my utility VMs, and I like it. I'm not much of a Mac user any more, but it reminds me of what I remember a Mac looking like in 2014.
There is a neat add-on called TwisterUI that can change UI elements of your window manager to look like MacOS or Windows. It's interesting, I set it to MacOS and am playing with it now.
I'm still a sucker for hand-helds... my favs at the moment are the Retroid Pocket 2 and I still love the PS Vita (modded for retro play mostly). I'm on the waiting list for a Steam Deck, that thing is cool!
Some people treat defrag as some kind of maintenance tool, some way to increase performance. People would have run it far more frequently
than they would have needed, disks only really fragment when you go
through many delete/add cycles, not with age.
Yeah, I remember spending way too much time running QEMM's optimize routine, running for 5 minutes then crashing, then running it again, making it 10 minutes, and so on.
Memmaker with DOS 6.x mostly did the job, and it was free - no need
to buy or pirate QEMM. This is the way, said Bill Gates.
Yeah, I remember spending way too much time running QEMM's optimize
routine, running for 5 minutes then crashing, then running it again,
making it 10 minutes, and so on.
Memmaker with DOS 6.x mostly did the job, and it was free - no need
to buy or pirate QEMM. This is the way, said Bill Gates.
Yeah, I remember spending way too much time running QEMM's optimize routine, running for 5 minutes then crashing, then running it again, making it 10 minutes, and so on.
I don't remember my PC crashing often with QEMM. It seemed to do the job fair
well.
Memmaker with DOS 6.x mostly did the job, and it was free - no need
to buy or pirate QEMM. This is the way, said Bill Gates.
Mostly, but I always thought QEMM was still better at memory optimization. I ways wanted to squeeze as much free memory available as I could out of the mai
lower memory.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 5/5/22 03:30, Boraxman wrote:
Some people treat defrag as some kind of maintenance tool, some way to increase performance. People would have run it far more frequently
than they would have needed, disks only really fragment when you go
through many delete/add cycles, not with age.
I mostly did it after installing software, that's when it really made
the most difference. Like right after installing Windows, Office or something else big. Once programs let you set it for even once a week, that was fine for me.
--
Yeah, I remember spending way too much time running QEMM's optimize
routine, running for 5 minutes then crashing, then running it again,
making it 10 minutes, and so on.
Memmaker with DOS 6.x mostly did the job, and it was free - no need
to buy or pirate QEMM. This is the way, said Bill Gates.
If you were not running Windows, QEMM did a much better job than Memmaker
on the same machine. They tried continuing with a Win95 version of QEMM
(or something similar) but it never seemed to work right, especially after
a Windows update.
Yeah, I remember spending way too much time running QEMM's optimize
routine, running for 5 minutes then crashing, then running it again,
making it 10 minutes, and so on.
Memmaker with DOS 6.x mostly did the job, and it was free - no need
to buy or pirate QEMM. This is the way, said Bill Gates.
If you were not running Windows, QEMM did a much better job than Memmaker on the same machine. They tried continuing with a Win95 version of QEMM (or something similar) but it never seemed to work right, especially afte a Windows update.
my uncle was a big gamer and he liked to play those xcom games and wing commander games. he called up one of them and asked them for help in configuring his memory. they gave him a boot disk that he just put in the windows shortcut that was no less than magic. i always messed around with th things and they had him doing shit i never saw before.
so he was able to reboot in a great environment with a lot of memory and it seemed a lot faster. i took it and used it for my games and i wish i still it someplace. whoever wrote those bootdisks really knew their shit. it was far beyond what memmaker or anybody used. it's like they knew the specific memory addresses for the game to utilize to be the best it could be.
I don't miss that nonsense at all. Once we started needing that, it was clear evidence we were pushing the system beyond what it could do. We were trying to squeeze things into a memory model which was outdated due to its limitations.
I never had multiple set ups for games, or uses any memory manager besides memmaker. My computer was set with two boot options, XMS and EMS, with it defaulting to XMS. EMS was required for a few programs.
so he was able to reboot in a great environment with a lot of memory and it se
ed a lot faster. i took it and used it for my games and i wish i still had it
omeplace. whoever wrote those bootdisks really knew their shit. it was far b
ond what memmaker or anybody used. it's like they knew the specific memory ad
esses for the game to utilize to be the best it could be.
I don't remember my PC crashing often with QEMM. It seemed to do the
job fair well.
If you were not using it on a Windows 3.x machine, or one with some odd ball CDROM controller, you probably didn't have problems. I was running it on a machine with Desqview and it ran great.
It was better, so long as you were not trying to use it with Windows 3.x. May stil have been better even then, depending on what you were trying to do with it.
I'd actually heard of Microsoft doing things to prevent Windows 3.x from running in anything except MS-DOS. If you were using DR-DOS or some other DOS, I heard Windows 3.x would refuse to run due to some technicality.
running in anything except MS-DOS. If you were using DR-DOS or some other DOS, I heard Windows 3.x would refuse to run due to some technicality.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Boraxman to MRO on Mon May 23 2022 09:11 am
I don't miss that nonsense at all. Once we started needing that, it was clear evidence we were pushing the system beyond what it could do. We were trying to squeeze things into a memory model which was outdated due to its limitations.
I never had multiple set ups for games, or uses any memory manager besides memmaker. My computer was set with two boot options, XMS and EMS, with it defaulting to XMS. EMS was required for a few programs.
yeah it was indicitative of bad programming that users had to do such modifications to their systems for games to work. ---
You can turn any machine into a Linux thin client fairly easily. I used
this 20 years ago, to be able to use my "modern" Linux machine from a 486, >> or allow my sister to use my computer (and access the internet) from her
older machine in her bedroom.
i had some asus netbooks that couldn't run linux.
On 5/6/22 6:39 AM, MRO wrote:
You can turn any machine into a Linux thin client fairly easily. I used >> this 20 years ago, to be able to use my "modern" Linux machine from a 486, >> or allow my sister to use my computer (and access the internet) from her
older machine in her bedroom.
well in my case that wasnt it. i could install anything but linux.i had some asus netbooks that couldn't run linux.
A lot of the netbooks and some of the really chromebooks are eMMC
memory, which requires flashing and a regular install typically doesn't work. There are usually instructions, but it's just something I avoid, unless it's for someone who is going to be using ChromeOS already installed.
On 5/6/22 6:39 AM, MRO wrote:
You can turn any machine into a Linux thin client fairly easily. I used >> this 20 years ago, to be able to use my "modern" Linux machine from a 486 >> or allow my sister to use my computer (and access the internet) from her >> older machine in her bedroom.
i had some asus netbooks that couldn't run linux.
A lot of the netbooks and some of the really chromebooks are eMMC
memory, which requires flashing and a regular install typically doesn't work. There are usually instructions, but it's just something I avoid, unless it's for someone who is going to be using ChromeOS already installed. --
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
I could've sworn most Asus netbooks shipped with linux, if they didn't ship with XP Lite. My Asus eee701 (4gb flash) ran Ubuntu and it's lite variants (xubuntu, easy peasy) with no problems. Problem was when it came to upgrade, and Ubuntu's standard install wanted more than 4gb to install. I got around
it (sort of) by having the bios boot to the SD slot, and installed a 32 gb sd card. I looked for a heavier duty yet fast access card, 32gb so it wouldn't
be too slow.
Moondog wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I could've sworn most Asus netbooks shipped with linux, if they didn't ship with XP Lite.
Moondog wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I could've sworn most Asus netbooks shipped with linux, if they didn't ship with XP Lite.
They did. The Windows version cost more because it needed extra memory, so most people opted for the cheaper version.
But some people bought the Windows version to get the extra memory, then installed Linux on that.
MRO wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-
i didnt see anything like that. from what i saw they all had the same amount of memory.
You sort of had to watch the stores closely to have seen it.
First, the Asus eee PC comes out (7" display) - Linux only because Microsoft wanted $100 for a Windows license - which would have doubled the cost of the machine.
Shortly after that, Microsoft noticed how well they sold - without Windows. They couldn't have people noticing how good Linux worked, so they changed their tune and dropped the price.
But Windows didn't work well with the current hardware specs, so Asus made a model with extra RAM and bundled it with Windows - again for more money. That's when Linux people were buying the Windows version and loading Linux.
But shortly after that, Asus came out with a 9" display version, more RAM, etc.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jun 06 2022 09:19 am
You sort of had to watch the stores closely to have seen it.
First, the Asus eee PC comes out (7" display) - Linux only because Micros wanted $100 for a Windows license - which would have doubled the cost of machine.
Shortly after that, Microsoft noticed how well they sold - without Window They couldn't have people noticing how good Linux worked, so they changed their tune and dropped the price.
But Windows didn't work well with the current hardware specs, so Asus mad model with extra RAM and bundled it with Windows - again for more money. That's when Linux people were buying the Windows version and loading Linu
But shortly after that, Asus came out with a 9" display version, more RAM etc.
i was watching, i didnt see any of that stuff you are talking about.
i used to run my bbses on netbooks. i had 3 of them.
there were various models but most of them had 1gig of ram, later on they ha i've owned 6 netbooks. newegg doesnt let me go that far back in my history
As mentioned, I had an eee 701 I had upgraded to 1gb of ram and a 4gb onboard ssd. Later on I received a hand me down Dell Mini Inspiron 10 witht he worst onboard Intel chipset and cpu combination. Ubuntu ran like a dog on it. The last one was a 10" HP with a 16gb ssd. It was also a good host for Ubuntu.
I still use the HP mini for setting up a serial session with my Chrony F1.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jun 06 2022 09:19 am
First, the Asus eee PC comes out (7" display) - Linux only because Microsoft wanted $100 for a Windows license - which would have doubled the cost of the machine.
i was watching, i didnt see any of that stuff you are talking about.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 07 2022 11:41 pm
As mentioned, I had an eee 701 I had upgraded to 1gb of ram and a 4gb onboard ssd. Later on I received a hand me down Dell Mini Inspiron 10 wi he worst onboard Intel chipset and cpu combination. Ubuntu ran like a do on it. The last one was a 10" HP with a 16gb ssd. It was also a good ho for Ubuntu.
I still use the HP mini for setting up a serial session with my Chrony F1
maybe this linux and windows fight on weak computers was a regional thing.
the only stores i was watching was kmart and bestbuy.
I'm not sure if microsoft was really that focused on getting into battles ba
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jun 06 2022 09:19 am
First, the Asus eee PC comes out (7" display) - Linux only because Micros wanted $100 for a Windows license - which would have doubled the cost of machine.
i was watching, i didnt see any of that stuff you are talking about.
I think those were the very first Asus 700 eeePC's. They had "Xandros" Linu IIRC.
-G
I could've sworn most Asus netbooks shipped with linux, if theyBut some people bought the Windows version to get the extra memory, then installed Linux on that.
didn't ship with XP Lite.
Re: Re: Cracked cases
By: Ron Lauzon to Moondog on Sun Jun 05 2022 04:04 pm
I could've sworn most Asus netbooks shipped with linux, if theyBut some people bought the Windows version to get the extra memory, then installed Linux on that.
didn't ship with XP Lite.
Yep,I did that. I ran across my old Asus EeePC the other day. I can't find the power cord though, but I wanted to see if I could still run something Tiny Core Linux, Puppy Linux, or even Mint. I'm pretty sure I bought it back in 2008 or so.
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